"This is such a weaselly defense..." - Destiny Debates Xexizy
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- čas přidán 7. 09. 2024
- "I'm asking you an INCREDIBLY fundamental, super easy question that you should be able to answer..."
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Date streamed: 09/01/2019
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Destiny's subs unionized in this debate.
They collectively bargained to make more money producing wadgets
Will this meme ever die?
That's not what I was gonna say
this meme is so fucking dead
socialism is boring
Thanks for having me on, was fun. If anyone's interested in this kinda stuff I've got my whole channel dedicated to it
ay you actually did pretty well and made some good points.
Indirectly Advocates for a civil war okaychamp
are you still a trot?
Not bad for a filthy dogmatic ultra, I guess.
Subbed
Capitalism incentivizes corporations to manufacture scarcity and create demand where it is not materially or socially necessary.
its called selling a product if someone will buy it. Every should have the right to sell something
I just made a new iPhone. Oh no, i also just created a billion dollar market worth in demand! And here i was - trying to eliminate artificial scarcity...
@@justifiably_stupid4998 damn i am a landlord and create unnecessary scarcity why do I care stupid homeless people just get a job lol oh I forgot a healthy economy under capitalism will always have unemployment dang it. Housing market and housing crisis are two sides of the same coin you can't get rid of only one of those we need to abolish the housing market if we want to defeat the housing crisis
@@cwg9238 The best way to create accurate factory quotas is to mandate consumption.
@@cwg9238 The point is that both supply and demand can be manufactured. So the classical idea that supply and demand are fundamental and blind determinants of the economy is lack-luster.
Artificial scarcity is the most glaring example of this. In fact when taking a harder look it becomes clear that artificial scarcity creates the whole basis of capital: The appropriation of natural ressources, intellectual property and means of production at the exclusion of a majority creates the very conditions of the capitalist market economy.
Landlords earn rent by exploiting the demand of those who do not themselves own land, and whose demand would not exist in this way if land ownership was more evenly distributed or collectively organised in the first place.
The same is true for all means of production and sustenance to some degree or another.
Initial unequal distribution of the means of production creates scarcity for a majority. Scarcity creates material hardship and hightens the degree of necessity (the less you have the more urgently you need it, especially if it essential for survival, dignitiy and social decorum). This creates the leverage to have people exercise much more labour beyond what society would otherwise require for sustenance. The overspill of produced value is transformed into material gain for the capitalist (profit for the business owner, rent for the landlord).That material gain can be used to acquire even more capital at the exclusion of the less fortunate, thus reproducing wealth inequality and the conditions which make capital accumulation possible.
"I'm so ready to be done with the lefty arc" - Destiny 2019
Destiny ran out of labour vouchers in this debate.
LetterClefs this meme should've died before it began
"You can pursue any goals you want working 40 hours a week or just work less hours and you'll be fine in a Capitalist system"
...so that was a lie.
You'll be fine in a capitalist system as long as you have capital. You didn't inherit enough generational wealth to be fine without working? Damn sounds like a personal problem surely not an economic one /s ☞(⌐■_■)☞
Pretty sure destiny didn't say that... Nice strawman though lol.
HucklePeel so then does he agree that it is a flaw of capitalism?
I was born into a poor family. I currently work a lower middle class job. I can't think of any goals I want to pursue that are denied to me. I enjoy politics, I am involved in politics. I enjoy woodworking, I do woodworking as a hobby. I like travel, I take an average of two nice trips a year and dozens of more local overnight or day trips. I like fishing and Kayaking, I do those things. I like writing, so I write.
I mean, maybe if my goals were radically different I might have trouble, if my goal was to spend almost all of my time constantly travelling the world, yeah, that might be out of my reach, but I suspect in a communist or socialist society the average joe probably wouldn't just be able to decide to do that either.
What are your goals that working 40 hours denies you access to?
@@jamesashford4236 Healthcare
Where do i buy a widget, i don't want the economy to crash please help.
no one cares about widgets now it's all about the wadgets
@@ataridc Get with the time kid. Wodgets are the future.
They widgets got automated by amazon.
@@Vearotic Don't be a fucking beta. Buy a manly wodget.
I like to buy ten time widget to crash the USA capitalism.
Capitalism's great strength is how it allocates resources to maximize efficiency. If Xexizy is going to advocate for a new economic system, he needs to explain in detail how it will allocate resources. Until then, we can acknowledge his criticisms of capitalism and ignore his remedies.
What remedies are there to ignore.
He sounds like a guy that just doesn't want to work more than 2 hours a day. A day of hard labor and a shot of whiskey might kill the poor kid
Free markets lead to production being catered to the desires of those who have the most to spend which is a minority and not to the needs of a poorer but massive majority. It is not efficient at a macro scale, it is efficient only in fulfilling the desires of the rich.
All this while making the poor do most of the work.
@@Aniket7Tomar I agree that unconstrained capitalism leads to wealth inequalities, but I think you are using a different definition of "efficient" here.
I am using "efficient" to mean "economic efficient": minimizing waste and maximizing value.
@@cowoffun3545 I guess you are a Social Democrat but you might be surprised to know that if Sweatshops in Africa gets abolished and the cheap labour is no longer available, European Social Democracy will collapse very quickly. The wealth of the West is built on the backs of the Global South.
@@dr.chadguevara6214 Cheap labour will be replaced by automation. Automation increases wealth inequality, but that is a solvable problem within social democracy.
It's not "a Marxist", it's our lord and saviour Xexizy (muke) smh
Is this spinoforeskin?
Didn't even link his twitter or channel lmao.
Fuck I didn't even notice this was muke. Why didn't destiny use his name?? Very sneaky...
@@boof6009 slippery Steve
Destiny's new fanbase hahaha
"All we need for my plan to work, is a global socialist revolution, where someone comes out as the authoritarian leader of the world". Solid plan, comrade.
Poor Xexizy didn't even make it onto the clickbait title.
@@Panthro-lo2lh Yea this is the type of stuff I'd expect from a destiny fanboy. Feeling competitive over a debate? You lost the point somewhere along the line.
@SSJ Shapiro super saiyan shapiro? Oww mega cringe. benny would be yamcha
Destiny is a successful capitalist who is profiting from the status quo. I don't know why people keep coming on to argue socialism with him. He isn't going to change his mind as long as his pockets are lined, lol.
Petit bourgeois ideology.
Destiny is the embodiment of capitalist realism.
It’s more likely to try and expose some of his audience members to the ideas, rather than destiny. At least in my view.
Brayden Hatch yeah it’s his whole 40-20-40 thing
I don’t understand how anyone can watch these debates and thinks Destiny is losing them
For real though, no one who "dropped out of school for music" is ever going to understand what it is like to be in the bottom half of society. Someone who grew up with wealth is never going to understand what kind of disadvantages the rest of us really have, and how "cheaper widgets" aren't really the solution to your parents working 60 hr weeks and still not getting by.
Suggestion/Request to Destiny's editor: spell "weaselly" properly in the title and maybe give the guy featured in the video the benefit of having his name in the title. (I believe it is Xexizy, based on this comments section)
aenz lol if destiny doesn’t want to, he doesn’t have to.
@@nasigga sure?? it was a suggestion, not a demand
Nobody should have to listen to this tard willingly, he lost in a debate against Sargon and that’s embarrassing to say the least
@@ilovejvopranks6164 when?
The Dampy Dude 2 years ago, Sargon and Bantu fucking smoked the socialists
31:28 Wait, you are making our point, Steven! Yes, overproduction can be (and currently is very) bad, and it is something that is inherent to capitalism.
Then why did you uncritically remark in defense of capitalism a few minutes ago that "more stuff means more things people can work with"'? Jeez, stop weasiling...
destiny needs to read marx
@@RichardVanTassel Never gonna happen.
Wait, but that was a refutation of the other guy's argument. He said that we can overproduce and that is good, but that's not always true, that's why Destiny told him that, so that means you agree with Destiny. Also keep in mind that overproduction and it's problems can come from a socialist/communist system that is still competing with other capitalist countries. The overall Destiny point is that there are problems with capitalism but that doesn't mean that we need to overthrown everything, that's not weaseling at all.
The small problems you have can be admended
Not just a 'Marxist' the true son of Marx, Xexizy Muke
TheDuke07 Pog genetic Marxist
Muke was one of the first people to properly introduce me to Marxism
he never read Das Kapital tho.
@@ElDrHouse2010 He's getting through the first volume now, he just said it on live stream. But i think it's fair to say he's already read it indirectly though
I'd love to see Destiny debate or interview Richard Wolff
Wolff, then Cockshott, then Furr. He'd get marxpilled instantly.
@@jelly3374 bruh Destiny makes a fuckton of money playing video games and implements rent. There is no way that this guy is gonna change his mind lol.
He's double masters PHD from Stanford and Yale...Destiny has a couple of books to read before saying hello to that guy.
@@OjoRojo40 good point. i dont think destiny would have him on just for the fact that it would mostly be destiny saying, "ok. ill have to look into that" lol.
No it will be boring, Wolff will argue for coops and it will be the same as the ben burgess debate except even more polite
Destiny quit his streaming career and become an indie wadget developer in this debate
*Widget
@@HebrewsElevenTwentyFive Wadget was his counter to widgets.
@@awed1139 Oh, right
Thanks pinkie
Destiny always reeeeeeees when debating commies its pretty funny
@@dickyboi4956 If by "explains how economics works" you mean completely misunderstand economics, I agree
@@PristianoPenaldoSUIIII The guest literally didn't understand the concept of economic growth, and thought capitalism was when it started.
@@powercore2000 That doesn't make Destiny's explanation of the economy correct. But more importantly, I watched it live and I don't remember the guest saying that. Mind giving me a time stamp?
@@PristianoPenaldoSUIIII Sure, hes effectively says feudalism has no built in means of expansion at 7:40. And says several times before that that continuous economic growth is an element unique to capitalism.
EDIT: He also says this at 4:00, because he thinks workers under feudalism only worked just enough to sustain themselves, and the lord, which is blatantly false. They were subsistence farmers who lived off their produce, but produced enough to trade or reinvest in other ventures the lord desired.
His lack of understanding of how growth works is apparent in the widgets vs wadgets comparison, where he doesn't understand that more efficient production is a good thing, benefiting consumer prices and allowing for more goods to be made in emergent markets, like wadgets.
He recommended cutting worker hours to produce the same amount of a good would virtually kill an kind of growth.
Destiny seemed to display a better understanding of basic supply and demand concepts, as well as the idea of cost and efficiency of products interact with economy as a whole.
@some guy The idea on how specialized labor gets done in a system that doesn't insensitive such work is a pretty general question, and pretty crucial to how such a system even works.
The answer is probably a planned economy tho, which the guess only kind of hand waved.
Destiny's production of words were restricted to eliminate inherent flaws of boom and bust cycles in this debate!
I don't believe that destiny actually understands how money is created, and that the debt can never be paid back.
@@terrythompson7535 that is a tall claim my friend. You should ask him
@@justifiably_stupid4998 It's not a tall claim if you hear him talk about it. I don't think he realizes that when money is created out of debt, that the interest to pay it back isn't. How am I supposed to ask him in person? You think he responds to every joker who posts a comment?
@@justifiably_stupid4998 ..and by the way it isn't a "claim", it's a theory. I didn't present it as if it were a fact.. saying "I don't believe" is not the same thing as saying "he definitely doesn't"
@@terrythompson7535 he has an open discord. Also that is not how money is created. If i give you $3000 by taking out a loan for $3000, i didnt create that money. The positives and the negatives still = 0
Do you know how to balance a checkbook?
Destiny, my dude. Just because you, personally, don't find chemical engineering interesting doesn't mean there won't be people who get into it because they do.
What about garbage men won't they still be needed in socialism
@@HucklePeel Why force people to do tasks a simple machine could do. Because a machine is more expensive.
I don't think this is a good answer to my question. You would need self driving garbage trucks which we are still far away from. You would also need robots that scan different terrain and objects so that it can pick the bins while avoiding obstacles...The technology just isn't there yet and if it was you and I both know that capitalists would of automated it already to reduce labour costs.
This is my big problem with the left they want to get rid of capitalism but have no idea how the system they going to replace it with will even work. If you want to convince people you gotta have better answers to questions like these.
Being Cool Is For Nerds we barely have the tech to fully automate fast food, let alone garbage trucks.
@@lucianraphael9527 Because it costs money to fund research into it, and its a way cheaper to get humans to do it. With the very little funding it gets, were almost there. in 2025-2030 the tech should be available. Imagine if we used the military budget of 800 billion to fund research into automation.
Missed opportunity to push back on the "libertarian" nonsense that markets = capitalism that Destiny often relies on. The notion that people were gradually implementing Capitalism because they were selling stuff is just dumb. People have been doing that ever since there has been civilisation, markets existed millennia before capitalism did.
Getting so tired of Destiny lately
Andrew Profitt because you disagree with him?
@@kurainaru Not just that. It's that I feel, he is being disingenuous here. Several times he sets up false dichotomys and false dilemmas.
Like, imagine the scenario Destiny describes where technology doubles production and the laborers want to work half days. Destiny goes straight into an argument against wasted potential never considering the possibility to double your labor force, and if working with the same model 2× production, the owner should take home twice as much, hire twice as many people and work half days. The product won't be cheaper but maybe it doesn't need to be. Maybe people were buying the product all along.
And if you actually talk to people you'll find much of the 'Cost' is from transportation of material and goods.
@Nick Bacigalupo Did you happen to miss my comment about Destiny? I wasn't talking about the other guy or his arguments. Check your bias mate.
Destiny says 'I need to look this up more' and 'I'm not married to Capitolism' and a whole shit load of cop outs. So, when this dude, asks Destiny a question and rather than answer Destiny asks him another question and when he reiterates, 'I'm not talking about that' your smooth brain thinks ah, Destiny got him! What about what about what about all fucking day and now you're doing it too.
I criticize Destiny and your response is 'what about the other guy?'
@Nick Bacigalupo No, it's actually, "I'm unsure about my opinion and dont appreciate the bad faith arguments" from either side. I have a bias, certainly. But I'm not a socialist. I'm just a guy that isn't sure of himself.
Xexizy has no idea how innovation works.
What's your idea of how innovation works? Is it not driven by public funded universities and curbing the free market using made up stuff like "intellectual property"?
This guy has no idea how market forces work. The widget maker is only going to continue producing cheap widgets as long as there is demand to fill. If they over-produce they stop being profitable because they are making things that they can't sell. They don't do this.
Destiny obfuscated whether overproduction is good or bad in this debate.
he literally went from saying it was good to saying it was bad
C WG it is because of externalities like pollution
All he was saying was that it's not an axiom that overproduction is good, and that he could envision scenarios where overproduction was bad. That's why he wouldn't make a blanket statement that it's good. We prefer surplus over shortage, obviously, but that's not the point he was making. He was specifically addressing that surplus is ALWAYS good.
The debater literally said that he thinks the capability of overproducing should be a good thing in that it points to the fact that less time/effort is required to produce what is actually needed. Instead the time/effort remains the same with continuously diminishing returns for workers/consumers.
I guess his mistake was allowing the discussion of a stupid hypothetical concept that most experts agree doesn't exist. Being generous with definitions and hypotheticals tends to lead to sounding a little contradictory, especially if you're biased against their POV
This destiny arc has so much filler
Perplexing Pantheon haven’t listened even 5 minutes yet, is this one not worth the work background noise time?
@@samuelantics4388 It feels like it.
@ I guess I've just seen so many lefties and destiny talk that it gets a little boring after the 50th one.
23:05 Destiny falls prey to the axiom of capitalist thought: work is only incentivized by profit. Here's a crazy thought: curiosity incentivizes innovation; capital is horrible at incentivizing innovation. As society progresses, the sunk cost of r&d is too great for the risk of investment.
36:05 Destiny continues the axiom. Apparently he thinks meritocracy is an economic thought and not a satirical view of the new aristocracy created by capitalism.
Pretty patently false, eastern europe and soviets became very efficient, but rarely innovated compare to their western counterparts
@@salokin3087 USSR's space program beat NASA how many times? (Not that the USSR didn't operate under authoritarian incentives and got lost in the bureaucracy)
Or if you like, how come the x prize deadline had to be extended again and again to repeat what multiple countries had done? Why were Bishop and Varmus able to discover retroviruses when they were persona non grata because of their work? What worthwhile inventions has capitalism even made?
@@timwcronin Congrats, the soviet space program was really impressive up until the late 1970s. I get it, its the one technological edge the soviets had for a time. But when it came to industrial, manufactured, technological and consumable goods and services, they always lagged behind. Just look at the Zeiss company experiment in east and west germany.
Be it personal computers, cell phones, pacemakers, commerical airplanes, cars, capitalism is pretty good at advancing products. Can you name any successful commercial good that came out of the Soviet union in the 70s or 80s?
@@salokin3087 you first. You're straw manning my argument with the Soviet Union. I addressed it as authoritarian. You press. Funny. You say my comment of curiosity drives innovation is false, but then point out authoritarian regimes. Where's room for curiosity there?
I'm afraid that the more I listen to socialists the more my faith in capitalism strengthens
mine in the market but not capitalism. the life of commerce is forever. unless humans nuke each other to the stone age which is a return to barter lol.
Destiny treats the good-faith actors the same as he would as a Peterson fanboy. And he actually treated JLP better than most good-faith actors on the left. If I see the lean back hands over the eyes "WAIT WAIT WAIT!" I'm going to unsub. It's so cringe and overplayed. Dude just discuss what's going on without throwing a tantrum every 3 seconds.
Umm not even close.
@@HucklePeel oh since you made a vague comment ill backtrack everything I said... Fuck off.
Yeah he just farms twitch. He's a performer first and foremost.
@@Matthew-gl6ni Okay let's try again destiny has been incredibly patient with the leftists he has on his stream whether it be viewer call ins or a leftist with a platform.
Apart from Mike from Pa and one or too more he's sometimes unreasonably patient with them.
I'm not sure if I could do it, listen to people who advocate a system they don't understand and turn around and call you the morally bankrupt one for being skeptical.
@@HucklePeel hahaha ok
Hey Destiny, I realize I'm a relatively small content creator but I deeply appreciate your work against the alt right and would love to have a debate on the subject of socialism. If you're interested just let me know!!
The Rational Voice send him an email
hey, just email him or dm him on twitter he likes to debate anyone.
Listen to the good commenters here good sir
DOn't forget that he doesn't believe in being "effective" he doesn't have a goal in what he does besides producing content.
Destiny got Great Leap Forwarded in this debate
Nice
- This comment was made by the Mao Gang
Between 16 and 54 million brain cells were genocided in this debate
Just talk to Richard Wolff. He should be able to explain it to you so you don't have to take the time and actually read or study, which you did to debate guns in the past I think... I'm sure dr Wolff would chat with you.
Isn't he out of destinys reach right now?
I think Wolff is pretty far above destiny lol
@@bandicootface5593 but he would be willing to meet him at his level. i would love to see that debate.
Oof, Destiny actually did embarrass Richard Wolff
Both debaters made mistakes. Destiny implies that more effiency in production justifies more production in general but this is against supply and demand. You can be as efficient as you want producing beds, there will only be so much demand for this. Destiny seems to imply we need capitalism for innovation, that's nonsense. Destiny later defeats his own 'wadgets'/ over production argument around the 31:30 mark. This is due to him barely understanding his opponent and often making up his own rants.
His opponent made mistakes by being too charitable to Destiny. For example, he allows Destiny's assumption that competition exists fairly to minimize profit for companies in the most profitable markets, this is not inherently true as monopolies can exist. The opponent also could've done more to ground Destiny when he went off assuming a light switch is being flipped for socialism. Here his opponent should've talked about the merits of capitalism and how they are undermine themselves over time. This in of itself suggests the defeat of capitalism for another system eventually, the opponent suggests a post-capitalistic world is a conflict between socialism and fascism, I agree from at least the fundamental hierchical perspective but that concept needed to be fleshed out more as it was barely touched on and derailed by Destiny's rants. In the future, ground the debate more towards capitalisms failures and why it's self defeating, that's a hour long discussion in of itself.
Well summarized
Where are all these innovations of socialism?
Improved production efficiency means more resources can be used to innovate. Innovation doesn't happen magically.
The capitalism is self defeating is not even worth discussing. It's like saying that democracy is self defeating. Arguing this on the internet with your smart phone in your free time comes across as brain dead, or you're a doomer.
Destiny bought an iPhoneX and threw it at an iceberg in this debate.
Destiny whines about his overwhelming desire for cheap goods in this debate.
Dude, tell me about it.
You watching ads or CZcams premium?
You know who whines about a desire for cheap goods. Poor people.
I wonder if Destiny will ever realize that his friendships with other Capitalists are based mostly on how much money they make from exposure through him.
Used like a napkin.
I thought Capitalists had to employ wage labor?
Dorsal fin destroyed
straint to r/cth PepeMods
Heard Destiny talk to Tri Hex about this. He doesn't really have friends. Destiny wouldn't really be that cool to adults if he never bashed the fash.
@@cas343 surface level comprehension achieved
For the record Im not defending socialism or kapitalism just trying to get 1 point corrected here.
Over production isn't what drives technologie, I got the impression from Dest that he was saying this on multiple occations here:
They both agree kapitalism inevetably goes to a point where it overproduces widgets. So far so good. Then someone invents a micro procesor that needs them and the overproduction is solved. Yes good. And only because of this over abundance of widgets will that new procesor be invented. So if you don't over produce nobody will invent anything and you "freeze technology". Sorry what?
Destiny new technology isn't magicaly invented because we have lots of spare components. Sure if they drop in price it's easyer to experiment with them but thats as far as the positive impact of abundance goes. Most discoverys are made using previously non existend tools, not over abundant once.
The whole principle of kapitalism in this regard is produce more each cycle and hope someone invents new uses for it before you reach overproduction. Thanks to the initial boost of going to a better system and all the profits from kolonialism, technology exploded. So it has a masive head start compared to said overproduction. But it's catching up at least for the moment.
Mian point:
Inovation historicly is made when people are alowed time to think and experiment, making new tools or discoverys that lead to technological inovation and new industries. Witch in turn alow more uses for previously existing widgeds. NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND!! Just wanted that inconsistend argument gone.
It doesn't make sense on any level. Think of how many inventions never see the light of day because they are not profitable (think for example curing a disease vs managing symptoms) or how capitalism disincentivizes sharing information: patents, copyright, trade secrets, etc.
Anarcho-communists are talking about a society where everything is open source and collaborative instead of competitive. A society focused on our needs instead of profit maximisation.
@ritchie frostwood Are you a commie? Capitalism is spelled with C. You sound like you've read Das Kapital by Marx a few too many times when you spell it like that.
I'm pretty sure that the visible speaker (Destiny?) meant that improving production capacity and efficiency call it overcapacity leads to technological advancement because it puts it (availability/cost/price reduction/volume whatever that would be a natural result of the mechanics of capitalism) in the range of more consumers that are researchers / inventors / companies who could derive new products from it. It was the invisible speaker that confused overproduction with overcapacity. It would also leave that same company to reallocate its production resources to new products with themselves may lead to incremental improvements. I would question the argument though that technological improvements lead uniformly to a benefit for all in that capitalist society thus justifying capitalism.
His CZcams channel is Xexizy
Cheers mate! 👌🏾
His name is Robert Paulson
Josh lol
28:23 and what’s the alternative?
SWEATSTINY
30:10 “I’m not talking about an alternative” this is why these kinds of convos are so boring.
An alternative is impossible if you don't understand the basic critique of why the current system is dysfunctional
If you don't think a problem exists then discussing solving the problem is a completely useless exercise
actually arguing that a utopia is better than reality is boring.
Soybeans Marxism is anti utopian
@@TheAxlSnaks I'm pretty sure that Destiny knows that Capitalism has problems.
@@axlglenn2156 he doesn't know that capitalism *is* the problem. A Marxist analysis looks at these dynamics through a scientific and amoral lens - he can't even comprehend this, it's why he kept trying to attach moralism to the critiques Xexizy was bringing forth.
The funniest part of Destiny's Left Debates is Destiny ALWAYS unironically makes the point that Tankies are the only Left group that makes sense to him. Even here he makes the point that the only real Left revolutions he will recognize are when military might was used semi-aggressively.
This is why im a tankie lol
This is why ML is pretty much the most successful model for socialism
@@Jeevanm71 it’s the only one that’s worked. Which is also why people don’t like socialism.
@@abrahamjaleel9463 this does not mean that tankyism is good though. It just means that it's the least ineffective form of socialisn
Tbf he does also say that libertarian socialist and liberal socialist models can make sense too and work in the real world, but his gripe with those versions of socialism is that he thinks they can't be meaningfully distinguished from a robust social democracy.
Hmmm, maybe if I had 20 billion of these horses I could make a car....
Is that not basically what happened?
Horse/sail transportation got cheap and fast enough that society could expand economically to the point where people had enough time and money to invent trains and cars? Like if we didn't have horses how would we even have the road networks you'd need for cars to be viable? How would you even have the destinations cars would drive to?
@Jay Blake I misunderstood what he wrote/didn't detect sarcasm np np
I'd prefer to lose half my 40 working hours to capitalist overlords, rather than own the products of my 80 hours that I spend trying to feed myself in the commune.
I think Destiny referred to specialisation a bit. And Xexizy talked a lot about over production. But what you guys should be talking about is 'Dutch Disease' - it apparently explains the Tulip crisis in Holland, the crisis in Venezuela, and problems caused by large financial institutions such as The City of London. The idea is that if one particular industry is much more profitbable than the others in a country, it can suck all the resources away from other industries - so that the economy of a country becomes less diversified as one industry booms while others decline. When there is a crash effecting the dominant industry in a country, there are no other industries to take up the slack to employ all the unemployed people. For example, Jeremy Corbyn of the Labour party in the UK is on record as urging Venezuela to diversify it's industry - he often get's attacked for being a socialist, with Venezuela being used as an example, when actually the crisis in Venezuela can be linked to specialisation caused by capitalist profits.
Thats definitely the economic consensus on why market crashes happen Kapp.
@@TobyClark917 Well, I don't know. I'll assume you are right.
I hate to agree with Destiny, buuuuut.. saying “well because capitalism is evil, we ought to change into something different because hey at least its not capitalism. It HAS to be better!” Is way more self defeating than what this other guy thinks capitalism is.
I really don't get why Destiny gets all hot and bothered about future scenarios topics or "utopias" when that's all he ever pushes for, even with marxists, like it makes sense to give details without the possibilities of contextualization. I know he is a very two-dimensional thinker, but is against democracy too? seriously
You do acknowledge the dangers of democracy... It is by far not a perfect system with many problems.
@@HucklePeel absolutely, and there should be safety nets and precautions for it (like more education etc) but not discarding it completely
@@qoobfoodisnotgood7457 Your first comment just made it seem as if destiny being skeptical of democracy was a bad thing. It has its issues and those will be even more prominent when democracy is how you run your work places.
Capitalism isn't the first system that deals with surplus.
Under feudal and pre-feudal arrangements people didn't just work for themselves and their families, the surplus went to the lord or guild etc..
Edit: Feudal Lords were interested in expansion and all kinds of other stuff, Augustus II nearly bankrupt Saxony to figure out white porcelain.
There's more sensible examples, Montefeltro in Urbino basically fostering the rise of a neat city.
I like how consumers automatically demand twice as many widgets just because they're cheaper. Like, if pencils were one cent each, I'd be drowning in pencils right now because I just can't get enough.
It's more like, now that we made this led screen cheeper, people will be able to afford more electronics and some of our high end products will be a lot less expensive.
How many TVs did people own throughout time ? The answer was 1 until it became cheaper and now everyone has one in their room. Same with phones, family cars, computers used to be this way to.
Firms might reduce their prices to attract consumers and possibly get rid of competition since other companies might NOT afford to reduce cost. You are missing the point.
If they reduced flakes to 99p again I'd stock up on flakes
It's more that when the price goes down, there are more people willing to buy, not the same person buying more.
The Marxist debating Destiny is Xexizy btw
"marxist"
If Shapiro is smart because he talks fast, Destiny must be fucking magic.
destiny was a landlord in the peoples republic of china in 1950 during this debate
Societal need is exactly the point of Socialism. People will work to benefit society because societal pressure will influence them to do so. Under capitalism, profit motive incentivizes people to work for useless marketing jobs and planned obsolescence, and limits the effectiveness of altruistic organizations to increase social justice meaningfully. If capitalism can make people think they are benefiting society by working, then so can socialism, because propaganda works. Except socialism would be correct when saying that it is meant to help society. Why would a system that benefits society not influence people to work to benefit society? Markets don't make people sort themselves, corporations influence markets and manufacture demand and depend on taking freedom from many to give to orders of magnitude less. Capitalist markets depend on consumers not being aware of who suffers as a result of the existence of the markets under Capitalism. People sort themselves based on incremental and constant incentives to ignore the authoritarianism and complicity of third world fascists, police fascism, anti-unionism and covert CIA anticommunist interventions. If labor were more prepared to organize in order to leverage power against the capitalist class, then the plight of slaves, the working poor, the indigenous, and minorities will gain precedence at every level of production.
“People will work to benefit society because societal pressure will influence them to do so.”
This isn’t how motivation works. People need concrete evidence of their efforts and rewards in order to internalize motivation as a behavioral driver.
are you sure about that? stataly it seems to be State needs, benefit of the capital city & the mainland. At least thats how it was with the Soviet Union which is why they wanted to balkanize so bad.
read about the Tito-Stalin split... like why do you think that shit happens lol? well aware tito was a "socialist" (some tankies might disagree here) but he wasnt fucking stupid as to downplay the market in a world about international commerce.
Destiny looked at this in the wrong angle in this debate.
I cringed so hard when I heard him say that, I really wanted my mind changed on this and now I feel like I just got my climax ruined.
Does Destiny not understand that a Boom and Bust cycle exist? It was common before FDR to happen about every 20 years or so.
Xexizy sucks, getting closer to the material critique though. Debate Red Plateaus or Anarchopac.
@Siuz it's almost like you are an ideologue and you think only Marxists can have material analysis? Anarchopac has read more marx than 99% of Marxists lol. But all you are concerned about is the optics and performance. The ritual of telling someone you are a Marxist etc.
22:45 Destiny argues making surplus product helps your society. Which is why Chinese and Saudi society's are so awesome.
What a stupid argument...are you denying that capitalism improved the GENERAL well being of humans all over the world in the lest 150 years?
It's provable with statistics....
@@freedomordeath89 My comment is dumb because I'm misenturpreting Destinys meaning. But I'll try to disagree with you anyway.
The industrial revolutions are what shaped our society most my dude. In fact, the first industrial revolution kind of created capitolism as we understand it.
Technology, science and democracy have improved our lives and Capitolism wants to pretend it does all these great liberal things.
Calitolism is cool because it works but it doesn't/didn't do everything.
@@andrewprofitt6898 Capitalism exists since the dawn of times if with "capitalism" you mean that someone is making a profit by exploiting surplus value created by a labourer. The industrial revolution only made it more evident. But there's no difference between a factory worker making profit for the factory boss and a farmermaking profit for the land owner.
Or do you deny that?
marxist philosophy is full of holes because Marx lived in the XIX century and dint have a clear picture of the past and had a flawed concept of economics. He was a philosopher, not an economist nor an historian.
Capitalism created the structure NEEDED for the tech innovations. Without capitalism we wouldnt have the RESOURCES to do that tech jump. Most human knowledge was already developed during the greek times, we had inventors etc even back then...why didnt they create the steam engine back then? They even had plans to make one...google it...what they lacked were the RESOURCES to implement and develop those technologies. Capitalism gave us those resources.
Even marx admits it in his writings. He acknowledges the incredible innovative power of capitalism and the energies that it freed up.
But you people dont actually read marx so...
@@andrewprofitt6898 Democracy too is a result of capitalism..we had the IDEA of democracy since ancient times...why wasnt it implemented before? because before industrialization and full capitalism poor people ahd no bargain power so no political representation. Once they started having an active role in the economic system thanks to the industrialization and the wealth created by capitalism, people started havign an active role in politics...so we see the first constitutions, right to vote given to more people, worker's rights movement...all this stuff existed even before but always FAILED untill the industrial revolution...so that's just thanks to the changes caused by "capitalism".
@@freedomordeath89 lol no.
In before the Marxists yells to Destiny to read books.
I get that many lefties think it's a meme but *not* reading hurts the Liberal, moderate, progressive and leftist goal more than they know. Keep laughing but glorying in your ignorance helps the very people you guys despise.
Lmao go read some books
These people just want to go on about how bad the system is while also not answering any questions about how to fix it.
Thank god Destiny scared all these commies out of his community. This comment section is embarrassing.
destiny is getting old
These dabate have got to be aging him super hard
Debate vaush >:3
Vaush sucks tho, he would just moralize and shit his pants even worse than the other anarchists
fuck off.
They already have debated in the past, Vaush was under the name Irish ladie back then
@@samuelparent-vezina5665 yeah I've seen those. They're all kind of old but I think it would be good to have him on cause he'd do a much better job of debating and challenging and responding to destiny directly instead of all the weird lefty pundits destiny's been talking to
@@fkostyuk ok buddy
Capitolism lowers price for goods unless those goods are necessities like medicine or housing in which case the price is set to what the market will bear.
Capitalism cannot lower prices for goods until there's an extremely poor population willing to work for next to nothing. Half the shit that we use is made in China and other third world countries where wages are 50 cents a day. If we start making everything here in US and and pay the workers minimum wage, prices are gonna go through the roof.
Both of those things are made more expensive by government intervention
@@Waddle64 like insulin right?
@@linenist1900 not sure about that
The home ownership rate is much higher today than it was 50 years ago.
Xexizy just claimed that capitalism is inherently flawed. He never produced an actual argument as to why.
Lol, Phone companies need phones to break quickly enough to charge another grand for your 'upgrade' isnt everything better when it doesnt last?
Ah, good old planned obscelecence. One of my favorite failures.
That is a good point, but at the same time the new technological advances are so fast that most phones become outdated with 2-3 years.
@@timluo55 Now explain disposable razors
yeah intentionally reducing the lifespan of a product shouldnt be a thing in any way
This argument is strange considering just how ridiculously tough most smartphones are, and capitalism offers you very good and cheap cases that help protect them even further
Destiny actually makes a bit of an econ mistake around 20:36. If the supply increases, but the quantity is kept static (so that it doesn't increase to the new equilibrium quantity), the price should drop by some amount as long as there are multiple sellers.
I mean if they are talking about a monopoly, then Destiny is right, but they never really clarify.
@@kls1160 Well the equilibrium is obviously changed because of the increase in supply. The market never adjusts to reach the new equilibrium quantity. This means that for the quantity produced, the corresponding price on the supply curve will be different than the corresponding price on the demand curve. If there are many sellers the price should fall closer to the corresponding price on the supply curve.
People who are against a socialist society, fail to realize that we have a basic model from which to build upon just on a larger scale.
The family.
Families are socialist, not capitalist, the parents provide for their children out of obligation to make them learn and grow, every family is different, but every one has this same basic structure.
Families help each other, when they are sick or when they need emotional or moral support and in some cases families work together to bring food to the table and enjoy the rewards of that work.
So economic system should work like the family dynamic? If anything families are charity
And there are zero problems with families..... not that I'm agreeing the economic system of socialism is the same as a family just pointing out that families b crazy disfunctional a lot of the times.
Isn’t deconstructing the “nuclear” family a fairly progressive opinion anyway??
@@smiff513 mr.smith the Soviets and their satalites were pretty big on the family unit. Idk if that matters here since the family aint like an economic system but still
Kalin Simovski “Were” is the key word there lol
Both lost this one tbh. Disappointed in destiny not being able to understand the widget thing. Nobody is pausing anything, they're only producing what is needed. You need 1000 million widgets, you can have them. You need 100000000 million? Sure. But eventually you don't need widgets and they'd just be laying around. If someone suddenly needs widgets again they will have a need for them which leads to more widgets produced.
You are pausing because you cannot know what is only needed for an indefinite period of time. Demand is constantly changing therefore you can't say "we'll produce x amount of widgets and that's that". If you produce some arbitrary surplus then you're stuck with a large inventory of depreciating assets. If widgets need some kind of improvement because something else in the economy changed - now you're stuck with a surplus inventory of nearly valueless widgets. If someone else figures out how to make better widgets now you have to forgo your inventory in order to compete with that business. At some point in this you will not be able to sustain your business and won't be able to participate in the market.
The point is that economies are dynamic so why does Xexizy's model only consider a static economy?
@@okseaj I see it as a genie. You want 10 popsicles? You make a wish. You want 200? You make a wish. Instead of making a wish you place an order to a company.
If you go back 1000 years the waiting time for a car would be like 1000 years, but in the future it might just be a day or two. And keep in mind that this is for the people. Nothing is saying the state can't have a little storage just in case, to speed up research.
Also this guy wants socialism and I'm assuming he doesn't want markets to compete in terms of overproduction.
@@okseaj also where do you get the idea of a static economy? He never mentions that the need is static
How do you build socialism? Educate, agitate , educate
Wonder why they stopped teaching civics in school? I'm sure all the agitation in the 60s and 70s had nothing to do with it.
Capitalism is the first system that sought expansion...?
Lords never fought wars amongst each other and try and coup de tar
12:37 "you want a violent socialist global revolution, you guys can't even get along with each other on Facebook" LOL
No leftist wants to go from the late stage of capitalism to the late stage of communism. Were already on the road to a more social market, socalism would be the next biggest step.
Origin of capitalism describes that capitalism's onset was largely based in agrarian England, where the ability of land owners to extract $ from serfs (tenants) was extended to the noble or petty bourgeoise class. Created sort of private market of farms, later manufacturing etc
This is not to say that markets are inherently capitalist, because they're not - they've existed throughout human history and cultures.
Richard Wolff
Richard Wolff
@@joncolumbino744 Richard Wolff
His recent Wolf debate was good. I think it turned a lot of lefties away from Wolf.
@@arshiff336 The common sentiment was that destiny was just trying to play definition games and Wolff was more knowledgeable. It wasn't much of a debate. Wolff would describe socialist things like co-ops, labor boards, safety nets, etc, and Destiny largely agreed with them being good things.
And then the one point of contention between the two was economic development stats under the USSR outpaced the rest of the world despite being a very poor, war ravaged country. Destiny said "I don't think that is true"
Well, I looked it up after the debate. Wolff was correct (go figure).
Honestly was a shit debate. Destiny came under prepared and Wolff spent all his time lecturing Destiny on history and definitions.
They needed more time for sure. And Destiny should have known better than to come so under prepared.
@@Sanosukeafo I am sympathetic to Wolf. You are drinking the cool aid if you think Wolf got the better of that exchange. If by definition games you mean a Marxist Professor that can't even give a non-weasle word definition of socialism, that is just embarrassing. Wolf jumped between definitions every time he started losing a point so he could back track and pivot. If the USSR had such great economic growth why did is collapse why is a county like Russia that is so resource rich have an economy the size of Spain? Do you think the USSR grew faster and more sustainably than any Soc Dem Western Country? The Feudalism stuff is also the dumbest way to try to make his point. Its like saying First There was Slavery, Then we had Feudalism, Now We have Capitalism, and Now we are going to have White Nationalism. It is the same logic. And Pivoting to lecturing on history instead of actually contending with questions made him look really weak. I hope their are better banner holders for Socialism than this.
Destiny jesus christ you dont think people would want to be doctors if there wasnt a cash incentive? The jobs society need will be filled because people in the society will live have social incentive to improve it. People will die of diseases, people will want improved food and become chefs. People raised in society will have lives where the needs are clearly affecting them and grow up socialized to fill those needs.
That might just have been the dumbest thing I've ever heard on the internet.
Steven "what do you mean about sustainability" Bonnell.
Destiny is right, capitalism drives innovation and competitive industries. If we only produce the exact amount of what is needed to sustain ourselves, life would become bleak and depressing. Capitalism trickles down in multiple ways that are beneficial to our society. In every single field. Automotive, fashion, medical science, computer engineering, food industry, entertainment industry, and so on. And how do you allocate resources in a socialist economy? And the widget problem he presented was very easy to fix, either scale back production which ultimately drives the demand, or you create a new style of widget and come up with creative solutions that continue to build that specific industry. There's never been a single example of socialism working without sever drawbacks in human history.
Ironically, the issue of overproduction was widely experienced in eastern europe and soviet union leading to decades of stagnation
@Siuz ah yes, not true communism
Socialism =/= communism so no.
Assuming the USSR was at some point state capitalist is not to prove it was also never socialist. It changed over time but never into Communism by any accurate standard. The USSR failed to build communism from its socialism. Then again it's most likely 99.9% impossible to build communism in one country. Communism, i.e. a stateless classless government of "to each according to their need and from each their ability" probably needs to be global.
Salokin "not true communism" is not what's being said here. USSR as state capitalist is a material analysis of the conditions surrounding the Russian Revolution. Socialism requires an international dictatorship of the proletariat.
@@salokin3087 ironically you are the one that is saying it's not true capitalism because they had a party in power that eventually wants to move beyond capitalism. Just because they had some thoughts you say they are not real capitalists anymore
@@spahbed7150 so its litterally impossible, what a ridiculous ideology
None of those briefly existing non-authoritarian societies were Marxist btw. Anarcho-communism is distinct from Marxist communism. Xexizy is being intellectually honest, but Free Ukraine, Revolutionary Catalonia, Zapatista Chiapas and Rojava don't really make a great case for Marxism, maybe one for anarchism.
Marxism and Leninism are two very separate things.
I never brought up Leninism.
@@davidfu4742 lel I replied to the wrong comment
Bwhaha
Destiny : so how do we move towards a global socialist solution
Guest : well that's the million dollar question.
Debate someone from Black Socialists in America or Co-operation Jackson if you want some specific implementation plans. I've watched a couple of your Socialist debates and can tell that you are looking for specific implementations. He's right that Socialism will have to develop out of Capitalism and his critique of capitalism's instability but lacking on explaining the specific Socialist institutions that could be implemented.
Also Professor Richard Wolff
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design." - F.A. Hayek
Xexizy's 'argument' against capitalism is completely exposed as ignorant of basic economics after 30:00, he couldn't answer any basic questions and all his arguments were economically over-simplified, it's just capitalism broken
This guy made some of the worst assumptions I’ve ever heard about economics and the way business works
“They didn’t have a grand plan for how capitalism works”. See the thing is, capitalism doesn’t require a “grand plan”. It’s literally just the free trade of goods and services between people. Such a dumb thing to say lmfao.
"You're missing my point" my guy YOU DONT EVEN KNOW YOUR POINT
"You want to effectively end technological progress"
"Nooooooo, I dooooooon't"
"You're suggesting we work less in proportionate response to gains in efficiency"
"Yesssssss, I don't want to woooooooork"
"Fuck"
destiny should debate finnishbolshevik
no, maybe, I feel as though Finnishbolsheviks oppinions on russia would derail the conversation entirely. His historical analysis, I've noticed isnt always focused on the future of post capitalism. Then again, I'm a casual viewer of his.
@@MarbleClouds yeah he's knowledgeable and yet kind of has a dogmatic interest in ML.
Destiny debating a tankie would be fun just for the memes.
NO
Richard Wolff just Richard Wolff. yall mfs lefties are just looking like garbage so far. Let Richard carry.
@@ElDrHouse2010 Richard Wolff is a great lecturer but i found his debate on fox business on that panel to be underwhelming. if you haven't watched it i recommend checking it out.
There's no evidence that capitalism will eventually collapse? *Every economic system throughout history prior to capitalism has collapsed*.
I mean this as a serious question. Does Destiny legitimately unironically believe that capitalism will last... forever?
Destiny, ask yourself this question: Is it remotely reasonable to assume that capitalism will simply last forever given the * inductive * argument that economic systems tend to transform over time into other systems?
This seems pretty basic to me. Why would we, or anyone, believe that capitalism will last forever? If you can cede to the idea that capitalism cannot or probably won't last forever, you've already opened yourself up to Marxist arguments.
It’s an argument of what will be more effective. Debating the question of whether capitalism will last forever is pointless. We should be debating what system we should adopt.
Remember when Xexizy got bullied off /leftypol/
Good times...
@@ElDrHouse2010 Well they don't host rapists and school shooters like /pol/
So now 8ch is shut down forever for promoting terrorism. Fucking rightists...
@@levvy3006 wow great bar you set there
@@imgayasheck595 Pretty sure they didn't have a know. I didn't know all the rightists were pedophiles and school shooters on 8ch.
The Boom / Bust cycle is mainly due to the Fed controlling interest rates instead of letting the market determine the cost of money. Its also thanks to the Fed increasing money supply and other things. You could even argue its by design and deliberate in order to transfer wealth from the bottom up.
Thats the one thing i often notice when people complain about capitalism. They point out a problem they have with it and most of the time if not all of the time its not free market capitalism thats to blame for it but government interfering in it. The bigger government gets, the more government becomes an active player instead of being the referee, the more subsidies, regulations there are, the more government is picking winners as losers (thanks to lobbyists, revolving doors, preventing competition) the less is it possible for the free market to function like it is supposed to be.
3 things the government has to completely stay out of:
- Cost of labor
- Cost of money
- Cost of products and services
Sadly, the government is involved in all 3 of them. So how on earth do you expect free market capitalism to properly work under these conditions?
Hehe oh no, someone bought into the Austrian business cycle theory that is proven to be empirically wrong. Can you predict the duration of the boom/bust? Do you always assume that the only signal entrepreneurs get is the interest rate? . Capitalism has intrinsic patterns of overshooting and undershooting in production because of the expected profit rate.
God I can't wait for Destiny to go to and then come back from London
Why
@@nilsify BECAUSE LONDON NOW LET'S IN BROWN PEOPLE?! REEEEEE -Lauren southern probably.
@@nilsify because once he comes back he's not gonna debate these dipshit socialists
Over production isnt economically Feasible. We live in an age of analytics. A company would have to be extremely poorly managed to overproduce to the point of helping cause a great depression
What do you think a recession is?
@@faber3969 an economic decline. Obviously the economy fluctuates. That's not a depression. Not even close
@@loakii-2330 But why does the economy decline? Why are recessions considered normal and healthy in a capitalist economy? Everyone recognizes that it's due to overproduction and re-allocation of the over supply.
@@faber3969 that's not true. The last "big" one was because of distrust in the banks and housing loans. Legislation has fixed that issue. And when we have another one, we will see the error and make an adjustment. Mass over production isnt that kind of issue any more.
@@loakii-2330 But why were they giving out so many loans to people who couldn't afford to pay them back? It nearly destroyed the banks. What do you with the surplus capital generated by constant compounding economic growth? Real growth is limited. They decided to put it into the housing market and build homes but that means you need people to buy them. When consumption, consumer demand, couldn't keep up as they didn't have the money to absorb the supply generated by the capital surplus, it necessitated lax lending in order to create a new market of more customers (something that capitalists must always seek in order to achieve the required growth) that would now be able to absorb the surplus. In reality, they couldn't and the market collapsed.
Regardless of what regulations are passed, crisis are normal and inevitable because there's no answer to the question of surplus capital.
I can almost smell the boot on his breath through the screen
Islam could be the Global social movement that fixes this issue. The expansion of the Islamic empire is an example of a widespread social and political movement that revolutionized the way it’s people interacted.
I went in very ready to hear this guy out. Can't say I came away super convinced.
Labour in the UK are VERRRRY anti-Brexit, Destiny, including many Conservative MPs who want a very soft Brexit. The awkwardness of the scenario comes from the many MPs from ALL parties in the houses of Parliament, disagreeing with the democratic vote to leave the EU. They stoked up anti-Brexit sentiment and now have empowered people who lost (remainers) by doing everything in their power to stop Brexit from going through. They have been very successful thus far but it may not last. Boris and his front bench may be able to take us out by October 31st 🤙🏾
NUNUNUNUNUNUWAITWAITWAITWAITWAIT
Destiny thinks ppl won’t produce wadgets until widgets hit a certain price point. This is fundamentally not how producers decide to produce goods. Take amazon, Walmart, Uber etc, the services or goods being produced are being sold with borrowed money in the hope that research and development will make it profitable some day. Most corporations will borrow money to create wadgets to capture the wadgets market first before looking at the cost of widgets
Just get another job 4Head
I dont think that the guy knows how different markets work. Destiny explained how in a market under perfect competition the profits in the long run are reduced to 0. But the other guy kept insisting that because the "rates of profit" declines, it meant that the industry would be overproducing wich would be a bad thing.
"I don't know how my system will work but I know it works better than yours". That's essentially what he was saying for almost an hour
You make a bunch of transistors and then they pile up and pile up until somebody comes up with a modern computer. TIL