Experimental Character Showcase - Marionette
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- čas přidán 28. 04. 2021
- Over the coming months, we'll be showcasing some of the experimental characters, live on stream, with an eye to helping prospective Storytellers see them in action and learn how best to run them.
This week it's the Marionette, a Minion who doesn't know they're a Minion!
Trouble Brewing character sheet here: rebrand.ly/TBscript
Storyteller for this game: Ben Burns (community manager for the Pandemonium Institute).
Join us for the streams over at / thepandemoniuminstitute
Find out more at bloodontheclocktower.com/
Music by Karl Casey @WhiteBatAudio - Hry
While this game was a nail-biter, I hope there is another Marionette game that showcases this character more actively. Thank you for all these videos!
what do you mean?
@@akadam90 Not to speak for that person but for me it seems like the Marionette in this game was just wasted. The Marionette never even knew they were one so didnt get a chance to ever actually play as one.
@@ronnie3044 that's the point
Impressed by Edd, solving so much of the puzzle.
I think the power in marrionette is to give the marionette a repeatable night role - like the fortune teller. monk, undertaker, empath, etc. At least that way they have a way to "Earnestly" filter bad info to the town instead of being a 'drunk one shot'. Not only that but the demon can have the marionette 'use their abilities' to prove they're a drunk or whatnot. I don't know how a demon would break through that wall of mistrust that a 'townsfolk' would have, but having a night action would certainly help.
On i hadn't thought about the fact that the marionette not being next to the true demon immediately let's evil know where the recluse is
Aside from the evil team not doing more with the Marionette, this was an enjoyable way to start my day this morning.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the strength of the Marionette is increased when there's more players, and the other minions go around telling at least one of their good neighbours that they are actually the Demon/Marionette pair. With the aim of trying to corrupt the town, or at least sow some confusion.
The actual Marionette also reads socially good since they believe they're good
Between Kat and Pat, no Demon is sat - which is sort of true
I'd be suspicious with Ben following me around everywhere!
Very interesting game, even if Aggie was more drunk than minion.
Is it possible to showcase some games with Travelers? Would be very interesting and helpful to see how they interact with the flow of the game
Yep, Travellers rule. A few more of them have been showing up on streams lately. :)
- Evin
It's nice to have the worthiness of my choice validated.
Strings! What a memory trip
Not sure how I feel about having a character that causes players to have uncertainty about their own alignment. Does it mean anything to Aggie to know that she lost that game as evil rather than winning as good? Is there anything that could have really convinced her that she was on the evil team while the game was in progress? (Contrast the Mephit, where evil alignment is confirmed by the storyteller.) This game is just one example, but it seems like in general there will be very little incentive for a demon to openly recruit the Marionette, because it will be too risky. So evil is effectively playing minus one minion.
(Not to mention that even a fully committed Marionette is a pretty weak minion. And being sat next to the demon, they are even a liability.)
@@q-tuber7034 Having the demon recruit their Marionette grants voting power to the evil team, which is sometimes useful in and of themselves.
But the biggest strength of Marionette, I argue, is that it allows for the effective recruitment of ANY character, if you can sell it, not just the Marionette themselves. Unlike Mephit, which is storyteller confirmed, being told you're a Marionette has no real confirmation besides what you're ability has been doing and how your neighbors have been acting. While you can argue that this makes it hard to convince someone they're Marionette, it also makes it much more flexible as a bluffing tool than true poison or alignment switching characters. (This is also why I suspect it has the seating restriction, so that minions at least has to sell something more than "You're poisoned, therefore you're Marionette", which is honestly not that hard to do when talking to any role that's hard to confirm, such as a role with very specialized information, one-shot abilities, or non-information roles at all).
In effect, if Marionette is on the script, it already has done its job if Evil uses it proactively, regardless of whether someone is actually the Marionette or not.
That said, I do agree that it's very much a double-edged sword as a minion, and maybe even a little snowbally. It probably requires Evil to be planning around it fairly early to make use of it. But that's probably okay because it's one of the few minions in the game which provides so much potential power to the evil team even if it's not actually within that particular game itself.
Pat's error was followed by Kat's error which was followed by Nadine's error. Hilarious.
I am worthy!
Wait, does the Marionette get revealed to the other minion? It says the Demon knows who you are, but it doesn't say the Minion does. If the Demon only is supposed to learn that the Marionette is a Marionette, it doesn't seem reasonable to have the Minion learn that the Marionette is a Minion. I mean the Minion knowing the Marionette is a Minion would just ask what role the Marionette had, and if they didn't give a Minion role assume that the Minion role was Marionette. There'd be no reason for the other minion to not share their role otherwise. Only other character who pretends to be a Minion and is not is always the opposite role, and is the Magician.
The other minions learn who the other minions are, as well as learning who the demon is. This is a core rule and happens first every night. But they aren't told that one of the minions is a Marionette, only the demon learns that. - Ben
I'm confused by the chef number. If the Recluse is conning as the imp to the point that the Marionette is seated next to them, shouldn't the chef have gotten a 1 at least with Recluse seated next to the Scarlet Woman?
Thanks for the question. The Recluse can register as Evil or not for different characters' abilities, even in the same night. For this game, the Recluse registered as a demon for the Marionette's ability, but registered as a plain old good player for the Chef's ability.
- Evin
Hey I've been wondering, couldn't the artist ask the following:
"there are two possible worlds: a world where my ability is malfunctioning because of a vortox ; and a world where it is not. If we were in the world OPPOSITE to the one we are right now, what would you answer if I asked [yes/no question]?"
Then the artist would know FOR SURE that their answer is reliably false, right? Just flip whatever answer you get, and you obtain THE TRUTH!!
Or at the very least, if you have a harsh storyteller who replies "I don't know", and your yes/no question leaves no room for personal opinion, then you learn this is a vortox game! There are easier ways for the artist to learn this of course ("is water wet?"), but with that strategy at least you have SOME chance of learning something else, depending on the storyteller's mood.
Of course there's nothing similar you can do to elude POISON (since it allows the storyteller to tell you ANYTHING THEY WANT including the truth), so it's not too overpowered!
XOR questions are generally fair game with most storytellers, but there are some who are not a fan and tend to forbid them (though I do think the style of question is very much in the spirit of the game, even though it *is* quite dominating once people know about it).
I like phrasing XOR questions like this:
"Would you say yes if I asked you (insert question; e.g. whether player X is the demon?)"
That way, in a non-Vortox game, the answers are
if yes = st would say yes, X is the demon -(no flip)-> the st answers yes
if no = st would say ,no X isn't the demon -(no flip)-> the st answers no
And in a Vortox game the answers are
if yes = st would say no, X isn't the demon -(flip)-> the st anwers yes
if no = st would say yes, X is the demon -(flip)-> the st answers no
@@landofmalvora wow yeah it's much more elegant than my convoluted "there are two possible worlds" thing! Thanks for your reply.
Vortox just means your information can't be trusted. You can get the answer you would in a non-Vortox game in a Vortox one. So even if you are in a Vortox game they will give you the answer you'd get in a non-Vortox game for that question. In a Vortox game, they'll give you the answer that they believe is most useful for their narrative.
@@RoderickEtheria That’s not the case. Artist gets a yes no question, there are only two possible states the answer can be in for starters. Second, Vortex FORCES the Storyteller to lie. They can’t tell the truth even if the truth is better misinformation in their opinion.
@@RoderickEtheria I'll explain the same thing as Meathir but a bit different: Poisoned/drunk means you get whatever info the ST decides (which most often will be false), but Vortox does not poison, it makes it so Townsfolk have to receive FALSE info, they cannot be given the true info with Vortox
So for example a Fortune Teller in a Vortox game will always get yes unless they pick the demon and red herring is arguable, some would say it should be a no because that makes them learn a false result (I'm kinda leaning more to this) but others believe (reasonably so) getting a yes on a red herring is false info cuz they're not the demon and so that's what they give to FT with Vortox (I believe this is what Ben's done in these videos before)
How did Edd get false info about the imp being executed while not drunk or poisoned
That's part of the Recluse's ability - they might register as evil and as a minion or demon, even if dead. That means that even a sober, non-poisoned Undertaker can be shown that the Imp or any other evil role died if the Recluse is executed.
- Evin
@@BloodontheClocktower thank you!
I know my comment doesn't really matter, 1.75 years after the video was posted, but a perfect name for a Trouble Brewing with Marionette script would've been "Trouble Moving"
How is a marionette anything to do with neighbours, surely you are confusing it with a maisonette
wait kat chose the mayor to be tkilled yet out of nowhere you decide edd should die instead, isnt that breaking the rules you were literally just talking about not doing before talking to her?
Hey, thanks for the question. Part of the Mayor's ability is "If you die at night, another player might die instead." So as long as the demon is not drunk or poisoned, the Storyteller can choose that a different player dies if the Mayor is attacked by the demon at night. This is because the Mayor's main ability doesn't come into play until the final day, so they need some measure of protection to ensure that they have a chance to be able to use it. It also gives the role a lot of extra utility as a bluff for the Evil Team.
- Evin
@@BloodontheClocktower oh my bad i thought the mayors ability was just the "3 player win" goes to show you guys know how the game works more than me, who knew?
Ekin was a terrible player good or not
Is a terrible player... Seen him play too many times and always making head scratching dumb mistakes when evil