The Pulse Motor: Your Drive Coil IS a Generator Coil
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- čas přidán 7. 09. 2023
- In this video I am just documenting something that had been kicking me in the face for years but I just never wanted to acknowledge, the drive coil in a Robert Adams/John Bedini style Pulse Motor is both a drive coil and a generator coil simultaneously.
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when you talk about how the Drive coil is a generator coil, my first thought was something similar to Floyd Sweets device, if you look at the diagram, it is two coils in a + shape, one is drive, one is pickup and theres a wireless transfer there between the two, and I think that output coil is just combining the input leakage as its somehow manipulating the magnets field and then that stimulates extra charge from the oscillating field to harvest the excess output and combin it with the inputs leakage to further cut any losses. Im still new to this and havent had any experiments done myself since I havent had the time as a full time doordash driver, but I will definitely look back on this comment to remember when i have the time.
I had an idea that maybe what Sweet was doing, was this, but instead of physically spinning magnets, you are using an oscillating field and the way the magnets were set up it would cause a constant movement across the wires in the coils inducing a charge. and i believe the drive coil is stimulating these magnets some how and I have a stupidly simple design based on images i could find of sweets device down to its bare components and Im excited to try it regardless!
Hi Mr SnowFoxy,
I can't say I have looked really at all at Floyd Sweets stuff, though certainly have heard of him. I would have to guess what he was doing was a bit more complex. All I am really pointing out here is that both during the time the coil is pulsed and when the coil is off, it is a coil of wire next to spinning magnets and the moving magnets create their own current in the generator coil which effects the behavior of the motor. Thx for the comment.
Nice observation, this highlights the importance of performing the experiments that lead to a deep understanding of a device and its tolerances. I’m keen to get an old pulse motor of mine going soon, I want to experiment with a special coil I made 20 years ago when I knew nothing, your video has reminded me how lazy I have been. There’s something so cool about an efficient pulse motor ticking along, I used to leave mine running for days just because I could.
Thanks whatifididthis, at this point I have spent a fair amount of time with these motors and I still get surprised now and again. Glad I got you interested in the topic again, I think they are pretty cool too!
We always eliminate everything to find issues. In this case you can eliminate all electronics and the siggen to find the cause.
FIRST - test #1
1) a ferro rotor is on a vertically-oriented shaft with a bearing; it is not spinning
2) a permanent magnet is 12 inches away from the rotor
3) the rotor is made to rotate by hand
WHAT IS THE OUTCOME? The rotor spins until the mechanical friction slows it and it finally comes to rest. The magnet played no role, it was 12 inches away.
NEXT - test #2
1) move the magnet immediately adjacent the rotor - leave 1/4 inch space gap between magnet and rotor
2) set the rotor in motion by hand and note the difference in outcome
ADDITIONAL STEP
1) an electromagnet is positioned 1/4" from the rotor
2) turn on a 60hz, 15 volt (or higher) AC to the electromagnet
3) put the rotor in motion again by hand
In reality, test #2 showed why the rotor slows when the magnetic field is close to the rotor. The 'ADDITIONAL STEP' just eliminated all doubt
No electronics, and no siggen were needed for up through test #2, and you could easily see what is going on.
With the magnet being 12 inches away, electromagnetic induction between the magnet and rotor is effectively zero.
But when the permanent magnet is only 1/4" away from the rotor, electromagnetic induction is much more pronounced
.
Hi Greg,
Thanks for the commentary sorry for the late reply. The one distinction I would make here is there is no "ferro rotor" in this set-up. There are the permanent magnets on the rotor, driven by an air coil inductor(s). With such, if you take another air coil inductor as a pick-up coil and put it 1/16th of an inch or 16 inches away from the rotor, the rotor will care less and spin merrily along without drag, unless of course you load the pick-up coil. Now in the case of a pulse motor there is a brief pulse where the electromagnet is on, once the pulse is finished there is the majority of the time where the drive coil is unpowered, within "sight" of the magnets spinning past and for all intents and purposes is a pick-up coil during that time. As one might set-up a FWBR or single diode to capture the changing magnetic field from the on/off of the power delivered from the PS, that FWBR is also out to a cap during the time the coil is unpowered and the magnets spinning past, and so presents a load to the air coil inductor. During that time the drive coil, is a pick-up coil, exerts drag on the rotor and delivers power to the cap. That's all I'm trying to get across here, and certainly the behavior is different with a ferro magnetic core in the inductor.
Very interesting indeed! I am also determined to recreate the Adams Pulse Motor/Generator.
We will solve this and there will be abundant free energy soon! Greetings from the Philippines.
Many Thanks Roy! There certainly is a lot of interesting material out there including around Pulse Motors, appreciate the "Hi" from the other side of the world.
Yep, by collecting the energy from the collapsing magnetic of the drive coil you can recover 1-99% of the energies used to spin the rotor.
The shorter the drive impulse, the closer to 100% efficient the energy recovery is.
Over unity happens because the operator applies 10 j to the drive could, the rotors picks of 4 j of movement and the user recovers 1 -10 joules from the collapse field of the drive coil depending one their setup and timing.
Sounds good chaorttai, sounds good, I think we think alike! In the New Year I will 3d print a rotor that makes use of both the North and South ends of the coil for motive power, it is an idea I got from Rick Freiderick, who I guess got it from John Bedini who may have come up with it or gotten it from someone earlier. Ideally, you don't lose any of the whatever you want to call it "inductive spike" but you double the motive power.
I recently saw a motor that ran on inductive spikes and recalled a circuit Master Ivo showed in his "Efficient Electric Impulse Generation" video, he uses a capacitor in parallel between the source and coil switch to capture the power used to kick the coil and recycle it for the next part of the cycle, or a capacitor between the terminals of the source to allow the recaptured impulses to charge the faster capacitor and then it charges the slower battery if the source is sensitive, leading an incredibly high efficiency.
I figure if we combined the pulse motor with this system the coils expend only a tiny amount of net total power to drive the motor which can then be used to drive a larger source, the shorter the impulse duration the stronger the kick will be per cycle for the same energy cost, in theory it should easily achieve a COP higher than 1.
My dad made a beddini, I figure it isn't creating electricity, the transister raises the voltage enough to charge another battery meaning all were doing is taking the energy from one battery and putting it in the other, with energy losses eventually we would end up with two dead batteries.
To make any usable current we need both north and south polarities
Hi DaVeHiLl200, For the most part I agree, I would just make the following observations/comments. a) The Bedini SSG is a Buck Boost Convertor (the backward diode is a dead giveaway). So I would guess you can buy a Buck Buck Boost DC/DC converter off digikey (haven't looked, just ball parking things) that is 80-85% efficient for 5-10 dollars. In the SSG case the timing of the DC/DC convertor is handled by the rotor. so a1) You now have an 80-85% efficient Buck Boost convertor that is also spinning a rotor, granted the torque sucks as it is being hit with brief pulses but isn't it odd that you can run a DC DC convertor and spin a rotor at the same time a2) The previous leads one to the question of what makes an efficient DC DC Buck Boost Convertor and just how efficient can one of those be? I've never built a crystal radio yet, but exactly what is going one with crystal radio sets? b) One thing I remember John Bedini mentioning with his SSG set-up was "build it exactly like I have shown, then you can change it later". To which I thought, that's so 1980s they have neodynium magnets now, build it with those and it will have super strong super neodynium powers. Eeehh, one thing in making this video I was noting is just how much of an effect the rotating permanent magnets are having even on the drive coil. John didn't use neodyniums and it occurs to me now there is one big difference between neodyniums and ferrite based magnets, one is a magnetically hard material (neos), the other is magnetically soft. So I have trouble getting the SSG set-up to work also as far as charging batteries well. Then again, I have gradually realized I have never built a Bedini SSG because he didn't use neodymiums and neodymiums are a hard magnetic material which may be the last thing you want in a setup like Johns. Thx for the comment.
loved the video! my take on it is, Your coil is acting like a capacitor when interacting with the spinning rotor. the -closer- the plates the higher the voltage. putting the coil further away creates more magnetic lag because of the increased distance from the center of the rotor (radius) the fields take more time to traverse the distance of the circumference the further out you go. more time = more current.
Thank you societyofhigh! "Society of High" is that like a stoned version of the inestimable English Royal Society? Just kidding. Certainly any inductor will also have capacitance and I hadn't ever considered it in the manner you describe. I can't say I model in my mind what is going on in this way, but definitely any inductor also has capacitance just as any capacitor also has inductance, so certainly worth keeping this in mind when trying to figure out why things behave as they do.
I can't even stand it any longer!!! Today after work i am going to build a pulse motor.
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The reason it slows down is exactly the same as the reason a dc motor runs slower with stronger magnets. In fact, your pulse motor is basically just a crude electronically commutated DC motor, akin to a PC case fan. Basically, when you apply voltage to a DC motor it spins (duh), but equally, if you spin a DC motor it generates. The polarity of that back EMF is always opposite the applied voltage and so if you increase the field strength by coupling the stator and rotor more tightly then a greater back emf will be generated for a given speed. Once the back emf equals the applied voltage the motor cannot spin any faster -- otherwise the energy flow would be reversed and the motor would charge the battery. That doesn't happen.
so I noticed that when I use a Hall sensor to run my pulse motors the closer I get to the rotor to the coil, the slower it goes. Unlike a bedini circuit where the closer I get the coil to the rotor the faster it goes. It only happens when I introduce Hall sensor.
Hi mcorrade,
Thanks for the commentary sorry for the late reply. I don't know what to say, that's weird. There are so many variables going on, aside from the specs of the components, there is the angle between the trigger and the magnets, the spacing of the magnets, etc, etc. If I had to hazard a guess I would wonder with the particular spacing of your magnets if you don't get to a point with the longer on-time of the Hall where you are stepping on your toes as it were, that is guessing a monopole set-up, trying to push one magnet out CW while the next magnet has come in close enough that it wants to be pushed out CCW, just a thought.
@@paulmaher812well for me it only happens when I use the Hall circuit and not the JL 94 circuit or the bedini. All other variables are the same. Same coils, same rotors. I know it sounds strange but I did notice this may times.
If you use a bridge rectifier across the coil, you will be extracting a part of your drive pulse energy into your LED. Instead, use two diodes on either end of your coil, in their appropriate polarity, so that your normal drive pulse is blocked and only the return from your coil gets extracted.
Interesting, thanks Tony, I will try to have a look at that going forward.
Great experiment, I am glad I found this channel. Have you thought about using a magnetic bearing and then run you spinning neodymium’s in a vacuum chamber? This would remove 99.9% of friction allowing you to really see efficiencies in this design? I know what I’m asking is not easy.
You have inspired me to build and test a similar design! Thank you for sharing!
Hi Shawn, thanks for the compliments and encouragement. I don't think I ever considered trying to set up a vacuum chamber for the thing to run in, ala hyperloop! Have thought about having a go at a magnetic bearing, may try that sometime, not sure how difficult it might be but they are cool. Will say as skateboard bearings go I am happy with the yellowjacket ceramic bearings I have been using.
@@paulmaher812 thanks for responding. Your channel has so much potential.
Can you imagine how efficient our AC's would be if they were using pulse motors instead of regular ones?
Indeed.
There was a company operating out of South Australia that advertised a pulse motor AC. I tried to purchase just their motor and they refused my request and stated I had to purchase the entire home system. They claimed in their advertisement that the AC cost was the same as a standard light bulb, I can’t remember what the fine print stated re the wattage of the bulb but this was the days of incandescent bulbs so probably 60 watts. From memory they claimed AUD$20 cost to run per year.
I remember they were out of business pretty quick too, you can’t allow the people to save money and stay cool, society would implode if we were able to keep our cool when the electric bill arrived.🤯
@@whatifididthis...1236 I'm already working on that AC, few days after writing that comment I fond an old working AC in my parents house and took it to experiment. I heard about that Australian company but not much. Who wanted them gone, did quite a good job.
@@L3X369 I’m not sure if they were taken out as such but I do remember saying to my wife they wouldn’t be allowed to operate for too long because this device would mean even poor people could have AC. I had a quick look online after your last message and had a lot of trouble finding anything at all about the company. I am yet to go through my hard drive to see if I kept anything from that time. I will respond here if I locate anything.
Or it might not work at all. Pulse motors have very little torque. Without large inertia they can't do any reasonable work. And you still need a significantly more power to move a heavy flywheel. It's more than just using a pulse motor. Other design of the circuit and coil most be taken in to place
Fascinating video again Paul especially what can be achieved with very little power input. I have seen other people mention similar findings, but you have a nice clear method of sharing which does help the less electrically minded like me. So thank you. As I understand it you have two possible sources of generation... The back EMF spike AND generation from the drive coil? I have also see other videos where the back EMF spike can have a larger voltage than the input voltage. I also thought you may enjoy this video and the guy has an approach of throwing more power into the pulse motor - czcams.com/video/TbRWTjc9nAY/video.html - On a side note and I don't know if this may be useful, I came across a Hall sensor that drives a pulse motor directly and does not require any additional components at all... the Hall sensor 47A-435H0 and the MA477 looks similar to me. Let me know what you think. Thanks again
Hey Brain,
Thanks for the comment and the compliment. It would be fun to play GrandPooBah and say of course it is this and why didn't you notice that, but really, like many of us, I am learning as I go along. That said, many focus, as I did, on the back EMF spike, as demonstrated in this video, at least with strong magnets and low voltage, the EMF from the magnets flying past the "drive" coil is at least as significant a source of power. Those two power sources, may (may) explain some of the odd results reported by both Adams and Bedini. One can engineer for both or either, but it is good to at least to know what to look at going forward. Will look to check out both the appended vid and the part number, thx!
@@paulmaher812 Thanks again. I'm fascinated. Thanks for sharing your work.
Nice video, I see you have found that a pulse motor generates during a cycle. For example If you use all north poles, as the 1st portion of the inductor passes the North Pole magnet face it will create a negative voltage peak then climb up to a zero value, as the inductor becomes centered over the magnet.
Next as the inductor leaves the center section of the North Pole face it interacts with the other half or portion of the North magnetic field of the magnet to create a positive voltage as the inductor begins to leave the centre North Pole face.
The North Pole face produces an AC wave form, negative value will charge the primary battery and positive value will charge the secondary battery.
High inductance coils will generate a strong enough voltage peak that it can back feed or charge a battery or power supply. This is the path forward, if you want to pursue a possible self running machine.
Hope this helps.
Thanks Advancedbatterytech, that's great, keep us up to speed on developments with your work going forward.
good analysis
Thank you kindly Ben.
1. The reduce in speed is probably due to the timing rather than the lenze effect. Try adjusting the timing after you carry the coil closer to see if you can speed it up again.
2. In a normal generator, an approaching north magnet will produce a north field in the coil and when moving away will produce a south field in the coil. These fields is what slows down the rotor as its repells and attracts. Now in the pulse motor in repulsion mode, the coil will trigger and produce a north field as the north magnet approaches. This north field will initial slow down the rotor untill dead center, after wich the coil shuts off and the north field collapse. To the coil, a collapsing north field is the same as a rising south. But is it the same to the rotor magnet ? Im not sure. But I know that if you start turning on the coil right before dead center the coil acts as a generator and energy from the rotor is placed in the coil and then this same energy is used to push away the rotor. This is why you will see some designs where the timing is perfect dead center at first, but once the rotor reaches a threshold speed and you make the timing right before dead center the rotor then speeds up significantly. Its because the rotor has enough inertia to overcome the slow down effect while at the same time adding power to the coil.
3. You can also see this effect of you use bifilar coils. So three bifilar coils in parralel (each pulse wire must get its own diode so one coil dont see the other as a short/load). One coil is trigger and pulse and the other two is just pulse with the next wire acting as a generator. If you make the generating coils only conduct on the collapsing fields using a diode, and place them in series then once the rotor reaches a certain speed and you shorts these coils the rotor significantly increase. Eg: in my setup the motor speeds up to 1000 rpm with the generator coils open. After closing the coils the motor speeds up to 1300 rpm and the power consumption drop by 40%. Also this only happened when i use north and south magnets (it was 3 north and 3 souths). But if i closed the generating clils from the beginning then the rotor dont even reach 900 rpm and the power draw is 30% higher than usually. Then again once the rotor reaches 1300 rpm and i open the generator coils the rotor then speeds up to 1600 rpm. This is due to timing because as the rotor soeeds up the induced current increases and this affects the timing.
Hi Raoled, Thank you for the in-depth and erudite comment. As I have said repeatedly, for such a simple pulse motor, there sure is a lot of complex behavior going on. I have not yet looked at a bifilar/trifilar coil such as you describe, which adds yet another variable. I have heard rumors describing the sort of behavior that you note, if I look at a similar bifilar coil in future will keep this comment in mind. Please feel free to chime in with future observations or videos if you care in future, thank you for the comment.
Can the presented engine be used as a dynamo/generator? I would like to use something like this in my projects.
It is not a terribly powerful motor, as it is a pulse motor. In fact you could pretty much think of it as a switched mode DC-DC converter where you happen to drive a rotor at the same time. It is not hard to build and should be something you can have fun with in your projects.
Curios, why don’t you have a soft iron or ferrite used in the core of your coils? This would greatly increase the inductance?
A couple reasons. I could say I am concerned about eddy currents and throwing in yet another variable to have to consider and that is a part of it but really the main reason is I want to be able to move things around a lot on the fly and I am using strong neodymiums. So if you don't have things locked in tight you could end up with a splat or kaboom if that core makes a run for a magnet. Once I have an arrangement I like I will take a look at if I can get further improvement with maybe a welding rod core or some such.
@@paulmaher812 sounds good. With a core, stored inductance can quadruple but you know that. Maybe you can try the shaded pole motor from a microwave oven. It runs the fan. I have carefully removed the coil and it has laminated soft iron core that increase inductance while preventing eddy currents. You make a good point about the strong neodymium magnets:)
P.s. I have set up my test bench to emulate your experiments. I hav also printed the Adams’ pulse motor manual. Thanks for sharing!
seems like if you had all your magnets facing the same way you would only get + pulses or - pulses. you might not be getting DC but instead pulsing DC at 12:00 with no rectifier diodes. just a guess.
i see. the magnets are N...S...N...S...etc...hmmm
hmmm is what I keep thinking as well, or said otherwise WTF.
is it possible the mA meter has a diode?
I'll try it without the amp meter and see what happens. Maybe I'm missing something really simple or maybe this is what the textbooks all say is what happens, but that was a surprise to me with N/S magnets spinning past.
@@paulmaher812 yeah... you would think N/S/N/S would result in +/-/+/- AC.
How powerful is this engine?
Sorry for the late reply. The engine does not have a great deal of torque. The reason being it is only brief pulses of DC. The idea is to capture the change in magnetic flux, as an inductive spike, whenever you turn the coil on and off. This let's you look to capture the magnetic flux and still spin a rotor. It is not much of a stretch to say what you are doing is taking a what do they call them switched mode DC-DC converter and letting it spin a rotor at the same time. You could improve the torque by having a second sensor and second coil which turned on when the brief pulse from the first coil turned off, but as shown, yea it spins well and fast but it is not powerful in terms of torque. Thank you for the comment
@@paulmaher812 This type of engine is an experimental engine. Thank you for your comment.
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